dani

@hippyherpy, how do you communicate the risks? do you use analogies? any examples? (you may have posted some before but I didn't see it)

I'm processing this whole HSV-2 thing better than I was at first. Right now I'm still having my first outbreak - it's not too terrible, but it's been lasting a bit over a week and from what I hear the first one normally lasts the longest. Because some of the symptoms are pretty mild, I'm a bit paranoid how I'm ever going to know when I'm having/about to have an outbreak - I've often experienced mild itching down there prior to this. I've also heard outbreaks and shedding happen most frequently during the first year. Being someone who gets stressed easily (about this and other things), I kind of feel like it might be a year of frequent outbreaks and frequent paranoia over the possibility of oncoming outbreaks. I'm wondering if I should just aim to stay celibate for a year as I try to get more in tune with my body and sort this thing out? There's a girl right now I'm interested in some kind of relationship with, but I'm not sure if I should pursue it given this. Maybe, if I disclosed, I could tell her that it would be smartest for us to avoid intercourse for a while and stick to other activities. Of course she might not be ok with this. do people think its best to avoid sex in the first year?

@optimist... yes that makes sense. Personally, if I removed the stigma from genital herpes that might have a significant impact on my sex/dating life, if I knew with 100% certainty that by having casual sexual relationships I was going to contract a disease that caused pain in my genital region for a few days a year, I still would have engaged in the same lifestyle, because the thrill of that has been so much of what made life exciting. so presumably there are others for whom it legitimately is not a big deal, within their level of risk tolerance/how much they let the stigma affect them (of course they could contract it and choose not to tell their future partners, but that's probably beyond the scope of what I should feel responsible for).

sorry i meant @optimist

@dani,thank you for the information and I think that's a good way of thinking about it - when it comes to oral herpes, we don't hold those who pass it on responsible if the receivers of it develop severe symptoms, since that is so rare. again, I think I've gotten a little bit hung up on the fact that my aunt seems to disagree with the phrase "small" in terms of transmission rates and believes a large amount have severe symptoms. I guess there's always going to be anecdotal evidence that contradicts trends, but what else can I do in terms of my own behavior and how I disclose than use the data that's available/what the medical community believes? I'm trying to separate the way that is rational for me to behave/feel from feelings that might end up arising regardless of what is rational. if I do transmit this and it does have an adverse effect on my partner's psychological and/or physical health, I will likely feel guilty. that may be especially true in the kind of shorter term relationships I've typically had, where my fear is that my partner may feel a lot of regret that they risked their health for something so brief. however, by disclosing to the partner beforehand I am giving them a choice/awareness of risk that, like you say, they would not have with another partner who didn't know their status or didn't disclose it. so guilt/paranoia over this possibility, while perhaps inevitable, probably isn't the rational thing for me to feel.

@optimist, when I say "sell the idea," what I'm speaking about is just the fact that through the course of the relationship I'm selling myself as a person/worthwhile person to have some kind of relationship with, whether short term or long term. that would be true no matter whether or not I had herpes, but I think it's even more important to have that confidence given that I do. in terms of the disclosure itself the best way, as you say, is to give the facts about it without any opinion one way or the other and let them make their choice. I'm sorry to keep obsessing about this one thing, as you may have already answered it - but, in terms of the facts themselves, you would agree that the risks of transmission per act of intercourse are low, given precautions? And that the risks of severe health problems from herpes are very low? Those are just the two questions that I'm trying to lay to rest as they'd help me feel a lot better about this situation/in terms of how I can disclose honestly.

thanks @optimist. I think rationally I should believe/behave according what doctors and research studies show - that the risk is real, but small, and even smaller that it has significant health risks beyond the normal irritation for most people. It's hard when I hear something from someone whose opinion I value who is speaking like I am a big health risk (my aunts suggestion was just to stick to herpes dating sites, which just makes me feel more stigmatized/worse). the thing is, I can disclose honestly, but obviously I'm still trying to sell the idea that sleeping with me is a risk worth taking. which is hard to do if I'm not sure whether I believe that. but, as you say, the risk is relative - it does help to think about it in those terms.

@optimist, thanks for the response... I like what you are saying about sticking to the facts of the situation in my life. I still think before I even get to the question of how to disclose fairly I'm just struggling with the question of, am I putting this person at significant risk, even if they do consent (since people often do things out of passion that they regret later). Removing the stigma of the virus (since some people may not care about that), is what I'm asking of this person fair? you say much of what each of us said is true, but I think the point of disagreement/uncertainty is on how big the risk really is. Everything I've read in terms of statistics and heard from my doctor indicates, 1) the odds of transmission are very low with condoms and Valtrex, 2) if it does transmit, more likely than not they won't have symptoms, 3) if they do have symptoms it's very unlikely they'll be severe. But my aunt thinks that the odds of transmission are not low. It seems she's basing that on anecdotal evidence as well as a general skepticism of medical research/statistics as being made up. She also thinks that a significant number of people infected have severe symptoms, whereas all that I've read suggests that it's a very small percentage. I don't know what to believe. But I'm just having difficulty moving past this sense of guilt over the even tiny possibility that I transmit something that causes severe/debilitating pain to the person involved, even with their consent to the risk. I think that oral HSV-1 is different because as far as I know I haven't read of any cases where that's created any severe medical problems. I just hope the risks of those problems occurring truly are small.

I had a conversation with my aunt that made me feel like crap and kind of made me call into question all the positive reinforcement about this condition that I've read on this forum and elsewhere. I was just describing my disclosure strategy to her, in which I would tell women that I have herpes, that outside the stigma about it's really a manageable skin condition, that the odds of transmission are pretty low as long as we use condoms/I'm on Valtrex/avoid sex during outbreaks. My aunt said, "How can you say it's 'pretty low'?" and said that, outside the stigma, herpes really does have serious health effects for some people. I told her that "pretty low" was what my Doctor said about the odds of transmission, that the studies I've read online agree with this (the one on this board puts the rate of transmission at 2.5% per year of intercourse from male to female, another 2004 study found only 1 transmission per 223 couples in a year, using Valtrex and condoms), and of course there's anecdotal evidence of many couples/marriages where partners have gone years without passing it. But my aunt said, if it's so hard to transmit why do so many people have it? She had her own anecdote about a couple she knew who were married 20 years without passing it, but then eventually the wife did get it and it became quite physically painful for her. I told my aunt that while there may be a few who experience severe symptoms, by far the majority don't, hence why 90% don't know they have it. And my aunt said she thought the 90% figure was bullshit and that we really don't know how many people have it and how easy it is to transmit since so many doctors don't test this kind of thing... but that she thought me telling potential partners that the odds are low of them catching it would be a lie, since I can never really know when I'm shedding; similarly with saying that it's not a big health risk, since in her estimation a significant number of people do have these severe health-threatening outbreaks. I really want to believe that herpes is not a big deal, that it's something overstigmatized, that it's unlikely though not impossible for me to pass it as long as I take the proper precautions. All of the positive reinforcement I've read on this site and elsewhere suggests that's the right attitude, but when I have conversations like this one it just makes me feel like I am a really serious health risk that it's wrong for me to ask others to take.

well, I think there's just been a very specific way that I've done things in the past of meeting people at hostels/bars/nightclubs and the feeling that "anything can happen tonight" - and it makes me sad if I can't have that level of spontaneity anymore. from reading @hippyherpy's thread it seems like he does disclosures once they've arrived back at the bedroom - and that's something that I personally don't have a moral problem with, but my fear is that the girls, even if they accept the herpes in the heat of the moment, might panic the next morning, precluding the possibility of a further relationship continuing. so that's why I envisioned this scenario... maybe another possibility would be disclosure on the first night, but then also suggesting that we stick to non-intercourse activities so that they can make sure they're ok with the risks in a less heated time before we go further. or, maybe I just need to accept that any form of first night hookup isn't as much of a possibility anymore, and the best approach is to slow down a bit - get a girl's number, make out with her, but then meet her again a couple times before disclosing and hopefully proceeding further. that's difficult for me to accept in that it takes away some of the excitement of the process I'm used to, but c'est la vie. probably the only way to figure out what works is to try different approaches...

but - to @Miji69, I do appreciate the comforting words. the stigma is easy to internalize so it never will stop being helpful to hear someone counteract it. and you are right, that if I do disclose and my partner is willing to take the risk, they'd be taking less of a risk with me than another partner who was less forthright/didn't know they had it.

thanks @Bluebetty and @Miji69. as I said my thoughts have vacillated on this a lot - part of me thinks it's not a big deal, it shouldn't be a big deal - but that was especially true before I'd had any outbreak (I just got diagnosed a couple weeks ago and am having my first outbreak now). I know the first one is supposed to be the worst and so my feelings in the future may be related to how often/severe future outbreaks are, but experiencing these symptoms right now it's hard for me to feel great about the possibility of passing it on to anyone in the context of a short-term relationship, even taking the stigma aside. Those statistics help @Bluebetty, although I've read many different ones online and at the moment am a bit paranoid about how I will ever know for sure that I am not experiencing /about to experience an outbreak, given the fact that I've often in the past had little itches or bumps "down there" that weren't herpes. But maybe you are right that I should wait a year, or at least a long period of no outbreaks, before making that determination. one idea I've also had is that, for shorter-term relationships with girls, to suggest avoiding intercourse and simply sticking to oral sex, as I've read the odds of oral transmission for GSV-2 is very low and those that do catch it orally don't experience recurrences or shedding (which kind of makes it a nonissue). my other thought, in relation to the concern of being "exploitative" of a certain group, is, herpes aside, that being a pretty introverted guy myself living in NYC, I've generally just found it easier to "hook up" and have short-term relationships while traveling out of the country (especially since I know some Spanish, which girls in Latin America find a huge turn on). and my temptation is to double down on that strategy given the fact that I suspect herpes is less of a big deal in these other countries. I don't think there's something inherently exploitative about using my being an American who knows some Spanish to my advantage while traveling, but there is just this question I'm haunted with now about whether a girl I meet would be enamored less by my personality than the possibility of being with an American guy and might expose herself to risk that she wouldn't with someone else local. so that's just a concern I'm working through.

I appreciate your feedback @Miji69. Perhaps my questions are just projecting my own insecurities about some of the relationships I've had in the past with women of very different cultures and socioeconomic backgrounds than my own. These are relationships that were important and meaningful to me and I hope to the women as well, but having STD compounds the fear that in the future I end up in an exploitative position because she comes from a circle in which STDs are not necessarily spoken about or considered a big deal. The converse of that, of course, is that some cultures simply don't stigmatize herpes as much as the US, not because of a lack of education but just because of different values. And I'm not really sure which one is more of the case in the Dominican Republic and other countries I've traveled, but I take your point that it's my job, as the herpes carrier, not just to inform them that I have it but to inform them of the risks and why it matters. But the overall worry, I think, is not that I would be taking advantage of a vulnerable demographic, but that it's simply that it's unfair for me to potentially expose anyone to herpes, even with disclosure/their consent, if there aren't plans for a long-term relationship. I've read hippyherpy's thread and found it pretty inspiring, but there's this nagging voice in my head that no matter whether a woman agrees to the risks or not, that I'm being a horrible human being by even trying to convince them to take the risk without a plan for a future together. And the fact is that I am looking for relationships with women that last more than one night, but it usually takes me time even after having sex to get to that point of feeling committed to something really long-term. So it's creating this feeling of dissonance and anxiety where I feel like what I want may be something immoral.

thanks @Miji69. so, to be clear, you have done it before but wouldn't necessarily recommend it? can I ask how it went when you did do it - did partners react in the way you're suggesting, and anybody get chased away by the feeling that you'd hidden something from them ? I guess my hope would be that after I explain how nearly impossible it is to transfer via hand contact, they would be appreciative that I was protecting them by not having sex on that night and waiting to disclose to them outside the heat of the moment. on the subject of spontaneity, I know Adrial and this forum are big on the idea that disclosing can create a deeper sense of intimacy and connection between potential partners, which I'm sure is true... but in my mind budding relationships aren't alway just about intimacy - they're also about passion, and the excitement of something new before you truly know the person. And there's no escaping the fact that needing to disclose takes away some of that excitement. but if this scenario worked out at least it would preserve some of it... guess the only way to learn is to try it.

Since I've been diagnosed with HSV-2 my thoughts have vacillated from thinking - it's really no big deal, the medical community doesn't even treat it like a serious problem, why should it be my responsibility to disclose this in casual encounters when the odds of transmission are so low? - to the opposite attitude of, but what if, even if I do disclose and they're ok with it, I pass it on to them, and then a long-term relationship doesn't work out? Is it fair for me to risk passing it on if I don't even have the intention of long-term monogamy? I have traveled a fair bit, and one of the exciting things about traveling is the possibility of sexual encounters on the road. the thing is, people are often so carefree in travel environments (like hostels, bars for backpackers, etc.) that they might not care too much about herpes at the time... But, am I taking advantage of that, if I disclose to them and they're still interested in moving forward sexually, or am I free from culpability as long as I disclose? The other thing I think about is how attitudes towards herpes may differ in many of the countries I like to visit in Central/South America. but is that because those countries just don't have the stigma America has developed over a generally mild medical problem, or is it because those countries are of a lower socioeconomic status than the US? My experience is that women in the Dominican Republic (I can't comment on men), for example, are generally fairly sexually liberal, and when I think to some of the past encounters I've had there I'm really not sure herpes would've been a dealbreaker for them, even for a short-term relationship. But the question for me is whether that's a cultural thing that's fair for me to use to my advantage, or the fact the DR is poorer/may have less sexual education (to be clear, this is complete speculation), which makes me wonder if it's exploitative to use to my advantage. I just feel guilty about the possibility of passing it on for what for me might just be a fling... although I'm opening to it becoming more, I'm not sure I'm ready for a long-term relationship and it makes me wonder if I need to feel guilty even when I disclose and the women is ok with it based on what has a pretty low chance of occurring...

I recently was diagnosed and have found some of the discussions on this forum pretty helpful. In the aftermath of my diagnosis, my mind has run through a lot of previous encounters I've had with women - many of which happened very spontaneously while traveling out of country, and were often pursued aggressively by the girl rather than by me - and wondered how they would have gone differently if I had disclosed beforehand. I've read "hippyherpy" 's thread "The Ladies Man Disclosure Thread," which has given me some inspiration that perhaps at least some of the girls would have been fine with proceeding even if I had disclosed. But I'm mentally walking through another hypothetical scenario that I haven't seen anyone write about, in which I go out to bar/nightclub and talk to girl, girl expresses interest in going home with me, I say yes, when we get back to my place I say clearly - but, I don't want to have sex or oral sex yet (for personal reasons), but we can do other things, then we fool around but I avoid genital to genital contact (hand to genital still on the table). Then, on a later night, if she's interested in meeting again in the future, I tell her: the reason I didn't want to have sex that night was because I have genital herpes, which I wanted to make sure you are ok with before we go further. I think the reason the reason I'm thinking about this approach is because it preserves some of the spontaneity of the encounters I've enjoyed which have progressed fairly fast sexually, without putting the pressure of disclosure on the first night. In a more traditional relationship/dating set up it would make sense to disclose before doing anything beyond kissing - but I'm wondering if anyone has ever had success with this kind of casual encounter and then disclosing afterwards.