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smilesfordani

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Everything posted by smilesfordani

  1. Right!? Haha I'm at least glad that these are "good problems" to have. :p while with H I've had great sex with assholes, great sex with great guys, and I guess now bad sec with good guys? Hah. In the grand scheme of things, when I first got diagnosed I was sure I would never have sex again, so I'm glad I'm driving this wagon. We'll see if things get better in the bedroom but happy this cool dude is cool enough to see past the herps while we wor on sheet chemistry. ;)
  2. Hi all! This is probably my 3rd post and 5th successful disclosure story. The talk went super well, as expected: per usual kept cam and collected, had a "plan of attack, had been intimate to an extent before but not sex, and was super sure the guy truly likes me and respects me as a person. Kind of a no-fail strategy so far in my book. The guy is great: We've been going out some 5 weeks but are pretty in tune with wanting to take things slow, get to know each other well, and no "pressure" on titles, marriage, or anything of the sort for now. It's been very relaxed and natural. We even took a mini vacation to California together to camp! Had a lovely stay-at-home date with probably the coolest guy I've dated in a couple years, and I felt comfortable enough to disclose. I told him how long is had it, how long is been asymptomatic, how it's more common than people think, but easy enough to prevent transmission with the right precautions. I told him I was telling him because even though the chances of me passing it with antivirals no symptoms, and a condom are super small, they're not zero. That he deserved to know and I trusted him and I didn't want to jeeopardize his trust for me before we took it to the next level. He stroked my hair, asked me a couple questions but ultimately said "listen it's not something you can help or your fault. You got unlucky. It happens and it's not a huge deal." So we sealed the deal..... but now I need advice because he's NOT good in bed!! Haha. I'm flabbergasted, it's the first time in a long time I've had bad sex, especially with someone I like so much. I don't think I want to break things off just based on that, but beyond just communicating what I like, any tips on how to nudge him the right way? It was pretty bad, guys hahah!
  3. @stillmebutwiser I appreciate the advice! I know exactly the type of guy you're talking about. I'm not claiming to be an expert on the subject, but, I already dated that guy haha. It's the guy that cheated on me. Yes there's still a chance that this guy is full of shit, just like there's a chance someone you've been seeing for a year is a dick without you realizing it. Not worth ruminating on the possibility of him being a bad guy and putting up a wall just cause I've been screwed in the past. I did promise I wouldn't ask questions about him seeing girl #2, but I'll make sure to be 100% clear on what exclusive means to me when I see him in a few days before disclosing. That was my mistake with the last asshole - I decided to be trusting and think that it was "common sense" what we were establishing. I know better now. Thanks again!
  4. Hi there, I've been part of this site for a couple of years and Adrial is definitely a godsend. I'm getting ready to disclose again; I've done it three times successfully with two really amazing guys, and one guy that totally fooled me into thinking he was angel. He wasn't, I ended up dumping his ass for cheating on me and wouldn't take him back despite him regretting it (that's a cardinal sin in my life.) Two of the talks went so well, and one came with a bit of hesitation but ultimate acceptance and no issue after. I basically have the speech memorized but it's always hard to lead up to it. I actually think I missed a perfect chance but in my experience, I'm only fully ready to tell the person when I'm fully ready to have sex with them. In this occasion he wanted to talk about having sex and how he wanted to move the relationship to that level and I simply told him I wasn't ready to, herpes completely aside, I was being totally honest; I just really like this guy and wanted to take things slow and see where they go. Anyway, it's been a couple of weeks since "i missed my shot at telling him." It's been a few days since I've seen him and will be another week till we hang out again when he gets back from vacation, so I guess now it's my time to get my mental state together to have "the talk" again with this wonderful guy, let's call him V. I guess I just want words of encouragement. Honestly, this is the most confident I've felt in telling anyone thus far. This guy is not inexperienced with women, he's sweet, attentive, affectionate, and what I think makes me the most confident is that he is not only completely open with how he feels about me (and is always eager to see me and talk to me), but he totally floored me this past weekend with his honesty. I, for one, have been seeing another guy from time to time (not super recently), since I started seeing V, but I wasn't having sex with either one and this year have just been dating casually, and both of these guys were really sweet so I didn't feel super pressured to pick, since I'm 25 and know how the game works at this point in my life. Well, I found out V does not play games. Christmas day we texted about previous relationships and dating and he was 100% upfront that he had been talking to another girl before meeting me but once he met me and quickly saw that he could have a much better relationship with me, he was honest with her and told her he'd found someone he really connected with and stopped talking to her. I was in shock that he'd do that. To make me swoon even more, I realized I'd be back from christmas vacation a few hours sooner on Sunday than I expected and wanted to see him before he left for his trip. Well he was again 1000000% honest and told me he had made plans with a girl, a girl who he had mentioned he'd been together with this past summer but hadn't really pictured things working out with her anyway. He told me that because I'd mentioned a cheating boyfriend before he wanted me to trust him and that he the question of exclusivity hadn't come up, but though he hadn't had a girlfriend in years this is as close as he remembers it feeling. And if the idea of them hanging out made me uncomfortable that he would cancel his plans and see me instead. I was like "WHOA." I don't think I've felt this refreshed meeting someone so different before, not about games, all about open communication, honesty, and keeping the other person's interest at the forefront. So I gave him a total hallpass hahah. I told him to see her, that I wouldn't ask questions, and next time we see each other we could talk about being exclusive and what that means to us. :) I'm still a wreck of nerves. I like him so much, am totally catching feelings for him, but of course there's always the possibility that he won't be okay with this bothersome virus. :/ I will update with his reaction (sweet jesus, please let it be a good one!!! aaaahhhh) I need a bit of prayers as everyone does with the big talk!!
  5. Update: Best. Sex. Of. My. Life. This guy is way too perfect!
  6. Thank you!!! He's seriously a great guy, so it's been wonderful to have him enter my life no matter what. It's so refreshing to meet someone so different and now also to know they are kind enough to be accepting of a flaw I can't change.
  7. I recently met an incredible guy. Seriously one of the best men I've met since I've started dating. Cute, smart, kind, humble, driven, funny, and has already done some pretty amazing acts of kindness for me. The whole nine yards. The best part is that he really really likes me. Anyway, I've had the best time dating him over the past month or so and there's only so much fooling around you can do especially since he's a pretty sexual guy. I invited him over for a later dinner after his football practice, cooked him an awesome meal, talked, he even told me a story that over the weekend he has "accidentally" dropped the word "girlfriend" in reference to me with someone he met. (Hah.) Well when we finally started getting intimate that night he definitely could tell I was tense. So I stopped him and just came out with it. Of course I started with explaining how amazing of a time is had with him and how I thought I was ready for the next level but we needed to talk first. He wasn't familiar with the term HSV, but when I dropped the word "herpes" his face dropped a little bit, which made me nervous but I kept going, telling him how I got it, how manageable the virus is with antivirals, how common it is, how many people don't know they have it, how stigmatized the virus is, and how of course, how I wanted to give him, what wasn't given to me when I got this -- peace of mind that I was doin everything I could to be safe and give him the information and choice of going forward. He asked me a few questions, but ultimately sai "well I can't tell you how much I appreciate you telling me. A lot of girls wouldn't do that and I really really respect you for that. we'll definitely use a condom then. I mean that's the reason I use one when I'm not in a serious relationship, and I know you said you got it when you were with a guy who didn't know, so that really sucks but we'll be safe about it. Thank you again for telling me though." :) He definitely wanted to go to town that night but I still needed to get on the pill again.... I was definitely nervous that he would change his min because we've only known each other a few weeks, and he's the first partner I've told who I didn't have previous history with... Thank goodness he's totally normal about things and has been super attentive while he's been outta town the past few days. He's coming over tomorrow, and I seriously cannot wait! :D
  8. I recently met an incredible guy. Seriously one of the best men I've met since I've started dating. Cute, smart, kind, humble, driven, funny, and has already done some pretty amazing acts of kindness for me. The whole nine yards. The best part is that he really really likes me. Anyway, I've had the best time dating him over the past month or so and there's only so much fooling around you can do especially since he's a pretty sexual guy. I invited him over for a later dinner after his football practice, cooked him an awesome meal, talked, he even told me a story that over the weekend he has "accidentally" dropped the word "girlfriend" in reference to me with someone he met. (Hah.) Well when we finally started getting intimate that night he definitely could tell I was tense. So I stopped him and just came out with it. Of course I started with explaining how amazing of a time is had with him and how I thought I was ready for the next level but we needed to talk first. He wasn't familiar with the term HSV, but when I dropped the word "herpes" his face dropped a little bit, which made me nervous but I kept going, telling him how I got it, how manageable the virus is with antivirals, how common it is, how many people don't know they have it, how stigmatized the virus is, and how of course, how I wanted to give him, what wasn't given to me when I got this -- peace of mind that I was doin everything I could to be safe and give him the information and choice of going forward. He asked me a few questions, but ultimately sai "well I can't tell you how much I appreciate you telling me. A lot of girls wouldn't do that and I really really respect you for that. we'll definitely use a condom then. I mean that's the reason I use one when I'm not in a serious relationship, and I know you said you got it when you were with a guy who didn't know, so that really sucks but we'll be safe about it. Thank you again for telling me though." :) He definitely wanted to go to town that night but I still needed to get on the pill again.... I was definitely nervous that he would change his mind because we've only known each other a few weeks, and he's the first partner I've told who I didn't have previous history with... Thank goodness he's totally normal about things and has been super attentive while he's been outta town the past few days. He's coming over tomorrow, and I seriously cannot wait! :D
  9. Thank you!!! So I think at this point she knows... She spends basically every night there and I'm sure he's taking some type of antiviral so she has to be aware. I haven't told her about my status.... I still find it hard to tell friends...
  10. So I recently got a new roomate and as soon as we started living together she started seeing this guy that she quickly fell head over heels over. He seems like a good guy and that he really cares about her. Welp -- long story short, I found him on PS the other day with admitted HSV2. I don't think he's been active on the site lately but I recognized him immediately. Anyhow, what I'm worried about is that I don't know if my roomate knows. I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt that he disclosed and she's just super cool with it, but I'm not sure anymore. She doesn't sleep around much and they started sleeping together within a week of dating and a little while ago she made a really ignorant comment about STIs when I was talking about this guy that had stripper-like photos on facebook and was trying to talk to me. She said something to the extent of "yeah. he definitely looks like he has an STD." I looked at her kinda funny and then it registered that -- shoot, maybe she doesn't know her boyfriend has HSV2. Anyway, she has no idea about the fact that I have it. I would feel okay discussing it with her I think cause she's one of the least judgmental people I know, but is it really in my territory to ask her "Do you know that your boyfriend has it too?" I don't want her to be mad for me "creeping" or "accusing" of something that's none of my business. At the same time, I think it would be extremely shitty if he's dating her and is so SERIOUS about her and somehow has avoided telling her thus far. Thoughts?
  11. Update - The skin is still a little raised and pretty red but 24 hrs later and no bumps. Still taking extra meds in case this does happen to be padrome, but maybe it's just a rash?
  12. I'm really really hoping that this is not the case again. It's only been a month since this happened again for the first time in 2 years!!! :( Felt itching today. Kinda scratched way too hard. Just checked a few hours later in the bathroom after still feeling some discomfort and saw raised skin (not what I usually feel which is a harder, tinier bump) and the area where I scratched is very very red (also unusual from the only 3 obs I've had). I took 2x 200mg acyclovir instead of 1 tonight, repeating tomorrow morning. I guess tomorrow we'll see if it's another one. I'm going to go insane if it is.... It could be that I was out in the sun for a few days that might have triggered an OB, but I did that for 8 days in november of last year and had absolutely no symptoms. I've never had this two months in a row even without ANY medication and now that I went off suppresive and came back on I'm really worried that my body won't respond to it anymore and sent the virus into haywire. :( What is going on!?
  13. So I remember reading somewhere that this could happen but I'm not sure if anyone has had the same experience. I've been OB free while in supressives for the past 2 years. I think I had 1 scare last November with padrome but no full outbreaks since July 2012. I accidentally forgot to make my doc appointment on time this year to renew my prescription and had to go a few days without acyclovir. While I hadn't had an outbreak in forever, I was scared and sure enough... Yesterday when I went in for my appointment I felt a couple small bumps. I started taking my medicine yesterday evening but I guess it was too late because now it's full on tiny blisters.... In the two outbreaks I've had before I've had one or two bumps but now it's a BUNCH and super uncomfortable. I feel like crap now... I had almost hoped to never see an outbreak again and thought that I would be lucky enough to avoid them for the rest of my life. I know it's just a virus, and I haven't been rejected yet, but I'm just down in the dumps now back to the sad reality that I can still express symptoms.... I'm probably taking more acyclovir than I should right now but I just want this to go away. I feel like a I min time bomb. I thought my body was just use to not getting OBs and now I realize it really was all due to my meds. It makes me feel like if I miss one dose this is gonna happen again.... Anybody had trouble with this? Going off meds and as a result getting an OB?
  14. So I'm finally over my ex of a year that was probably the sweetest person God put in this earth...and I need advice on whether it's time or not to disclose again. This is the situation: Lately I've been seeing my friend with benefits a lot. We've known each other about 1.5 years and tried to date for a bit a couple years ago (about 5 months after I was diagnosed). At some point I ended things, but at the end of the day we stayed friends throughout. After I broke up with my ex I've become more intimate with him yet again. We've never gone all the way, but we fool around pretty often. It's the strangest relationship ever since we're extremely close. We can talk about anything, he's never passed judgement on me, we're extremely affectionate, we will pretty much do any favor the other asks, we've given relationship/sex advice to one another often, and he seriously cares about me. I've told him time and time again that the chances of us having sex are slim (he doesn't know about H at all), and he's okay with that because he loves to spend time with me and he's fine fooling around in other ways. This has gone on for some two months now. Lately, he's been hinting a lot more and asking why it would be so bad for us to have sex. I'm constantly trying to change the subject and just say that it's because we're friends and that would severely change the dynamic and I usually only do that if I know I'm the only girl in that guy's life at the time and I know he's not totally ready for that. While he's said that if feelings for me surfaced he wouldn't fight them (and lately he's been more and more affectionate, wanting to see me, wanting more attention from me, LOVES it if I act even the least bit jealous or annoyed about any girl he's seeing), he hasn't made it a point to talk seriously about the prospect of us dating, which I would need time to think about too, but let's just say, I think some feelings are growing on both ends of the spectrum. About the talk: I know he's been pretty promiscuous in the past, so I know for sure he has to have been exposed to this and other viruses/diseases before from the woman he's slept with, dated, hooked up with, seen. Whatever you have it. However, I'm still scared to let him know since I don't know if anyone has ever had such a talk with him. From what it seems like, nope. To be honest, I'm really curious about having sex with him and want to. We have amazing chemistry, I know he cares about me deeply, and I'm certain we would have amazing sex. For him, I would make an exception to my "only when in a serious relationship" rule. I just don't know how he'll react and that terrifies me. I don't know if what we have now will continue to grow into dating (to be frank, it's likely that he might want if this keeps up...he makes comments all the time when I laugh at the thought of us being together and says that in his eyes it wouldn't be strange at all if we ended up together.) I know no matter what we'll probably end up being friends again even if he reacts badly, but the thing is, I don't want him to react badly. I don't want him to see me in a different light. He knows I don't sleep around, that I'm loyal to my boyfriends, and am a great person and friend....I don't want that to change. I guess I'm between wanting him to be a friend or more than a friend at this point and dunno what the best approach is to handling a disclosure when battling those feelings out. The last girl he saw used to be with slept with a ton of dudes, used to be a stripper and a drug addict and he accepted her as she was. I guess I'm terrified that he'd see me as more of a risk due to H than seeing someone like her... that would really hurt me considering his lifestyle. I'm taking anti-virals, take care of my health, and would enforce a condom if we ever did, but I'm not sure if that's enough to get the stigma cleaned fro his head. I feel like I have two choices: 1 - I completely end our intimate relationship and am extremely strict about us being ONLY and NEVER more than friends and don't risk being hurt but also don't risk seeing where things could take me with someone that cares for me so much. 2 - I disclose and see where things go.....while our sex could be great and he might be accepting, he might also reject me, be weird, and in turn I would feel awful for not being able to be accepted by someone that I've been convinced loves my entire person. What do I do!? :/
  15. So I'm finally over my ex of a year that was probably the sweetest person God put in this earth...and I need advice on whether it's time or not to disclose again. This is the situation: Lately I've been seeing my friend with benefits a lot. We've known each other about 1.5 years and tried to date for a bit a couple years ago (about 5 months after I was diagnosed). At some point I ended things, but at the end of the day we stayed friends throughout. After I broke up with my ex I've become more intimate with him yet again. We've never gone all the way, but we fool around pretty often. It's the strangest relationship ever since we're extremely close. We can talk about anything, he's never passed judgement on me, we're extremely affectionate, we will pretty much do any favor the other asks, we've given relationship/sex advice to one another often, and he seriously cares about me. I've told him time and time again that the chances of us having sex are slim (he doesn't know about H at all), and he's okay with that because he loves to spend time with me and he's fine fooling around in other ways. This has gone on for some two months now. Lately, he's been hinting a lot more and asking why it would be so bad for us to have sex. I'm constantly trying to change the subject and just say that it's because we're friends and that would severely change the dynamic and I usually only do that if I know I'm the only girl in that guy's life at the time and I know he's not totally ready for that. While he's said that if feelings for me surfaced he wouldn't fight them (and lately he's been more and more affectionate, wanting to see me, wanting more attention from me, LOVES it if I act even the least bit jealous or annoyed about any girl he's seeing), he hasn't made it a point to talk seriously about the prospect of us dating, which I would need time to think about too, but let's just say, I think some feelings are growing on both ends of the spectrum. About the talk: I know he's been pretty promiscuous in the past, so I know for sure he has to have been exposed to this and other viruses/diseases before from the woman he's slept with, dated, hooked up with, seen. Whatever you have it. However, I'm still scared to let him know since I don't know if anyone has ever had such a talk with him. From what it seems like, nope. To be honest, I'm really curious about having sex with him and want to. We have amazing chemistry, I know he cares about me deeply, and I'm certain we would have amazing sex. For him, I would make an exception to my "only when in a serious relationship" rule. I just don't know how he'll react and that terrifies me. I don't know if what we have now will continue to grow into dating (to be frank, it's likely that he might want if this keeps up...he makes comments all the time when I laugh at the thought of us being together and says that in his eyes it wouldn't be strange at all if we ended up together.) I know no matter what we'll probably end up being friends again even if he reacts badly, but the thing is, I don't want him to react badly. I don't want him to see me in a different light. He knows I don't sleep around, that I'm loyal to my boyfriends, and am a great person and friend....I don't want that to change. I guess I'm between wanting him to be a friend or more than a friend at this point and dunno what the best approach is to handling a disclosure when battling those feelings out. The last girl he saw used to be with slept with a ton of dudes, used to be a stripper and a drug addict and he accepted her as she was. I guess I'm terrified that he'd see me as more of a risk due to H than seeing someone like her... that would really hurt me considering his lifestyle. I'm taking anti-virals, take care of my health, and would enforce a condom if we ever did, but I'm not sure if that's enough to get the stigma cleaned fro his head. I feel like I have two choices: 1 - I completely end our intimate relationship and am extremely strict about us being ONLY and NEVER more than friends and don't risk being hurt but also don't risk seeing where things could take me with someone that cares for me so much. 2 - I disclose and see where things go.....while our sex could be great and he might be accepting, he might also reject me, be weird, and in turn I would feel awful for not being able to be accepted by someone that I've been convinced loves my entire person. What do I do!? :/
  16. I found this article online and it definitely emphasizes and highlights everything that Adrial has ever said. http://thoughtcatalog.com/2013/four-words-that-can-change-the-way-we-live/#J84IeWPWLIIfiV8C.01 Here are some highlights: "When we choose vulnerability, we open the doors of communication in a life changing way. It’s easy for most of us to give. It feels life affirming to help others, to give of ourselves. Even with the most altruistic intentions, the act of giving does make us feel better too. But asking for help and being willing to receive help from others is much harder. When we take that risk—the risk that the answer might be rejection, ridicule or an unwillingness to help–we are not being weak. We are being vulnerable, which is perhaps our greatest untapped strength." "When we choose to trust, we are exhibiting tremendous strength." "We are exhibiting security in our own self worth. We know that having a need doesn’t negate our value as a person." "We are choosing to trust the person we ask for help; this is a reflection of our respect for them as well as our confidence in our own ability to choose our partners and allies well." Hope you enjoy!
  17. To be happy does not mean to have a perfect life It's to dream and also to cry... To be happy is to love even if sometimes love hurts you To be happy is to recognize that life is worth living, despite all the obstacles it gives us To be happy is to stop being victims of our problems to become the authors of our own stories. My aunt posted this on facebook not long ago... every time I look at it I think that I'm glad to be alive, to have felt love, to have lived what I have lived, and to be anxiously waiting for the next step. I'm still sad that my boyfriend and I broke up, but he won't be the only person that will accept me beyond H. I'll find my own way one little step at the time. :)
  18. I got diagnosed on May 2012, got put on Acyclovir after my second outbreak in late July 2012 and I've since not had an outbreak. I've had a scare in November but I didn't have sex for about two weeks to be sure it wasn't an outbreak and nothing developed. I still get a dull pain down there every once in a blue moon but it's pretty rare. I got my medicine from Planned Parenthood!
  19. Hey guys! So the amazing, wonderful guy that accepted me and loved me for what I was despite H broke up with me on Sunday. His reasons had absolutely nothing to do with H...but it blindsided me and I'm honestly terrified about trying to date again. It's not just the heartbreak that's tearing me apart, but also the fact that I honestly don't know how I will find someone nearly as amazing as him that will see past this. I guess if someone sees past this they're already pretty cool as it is, but I can't imagine myself disclosing again anytime soon. I haven't even disclosed to my friends and family except for my old roomate and one close friend when I first diagnosed cause I was so rock bottom. I'm trying to lift myself up and not think about H that much so I picked up an inspirational book called TinyBuddha....there was a chapter on love, and guess what? The author shared an experience she had with a man she started dating who had herpes and completely shamed him. She said that he'd told her that she was the only woman who hadn't hit him or yelled at him or told him he was disgusting since he started disclosing (which all seems greatly exaggerated unless he was sleeping with women before disclosing), she compared this "bombshell" as when another guy had told her he was a sex offender. She kept seeing but with the understanding that she would never have sex with him. She made a point that he had little chance of finding love because of his "disease." I was so outraged that I e-mailed the author and sent her several paragraphs of how much this had hurt me and statistics on how terrible it was the way she'd labeled him and talked about him since she'd probably, like most of the population, NOT been tested for herpes, so how would she know if she had it as a sexually active woman? She returned my money and apologized right away...but it seriously was like a knife to the chest. This stigma is the most painful thing I've ever had to go through in my life besides having to cope after being raped. It's just a lot of hard emotions and I really really with I had someone to talk to going through the same thing but know no one. I'm looking into local support groups/social groups for people with H...I think having a boyfriend that genuinely cared more about me than H allowed me to forget about the condition and also made me more attached to him since he knew and he was the closest person to me. Now that's all taken away and I feel pretty alone, not just because I lost someone I loved so much but also because I lost the only person I was able to talk to about these things. I feel just as sad as I felt when I was first diagnosed and having the same feelings of "I'll never find someone who loves me..." what's worse is that now I'm thinking "I'll never find someone who loves me the way that he loved me..." and trust me, if he had more stability in his life right now we would still be together and I would 100% be under the impression that there is no one better out there for me. I would literally do anything to have him back but know that I need to respect his decision and that it would have been a difficult future since we were long distance at this point and we have a lot of cultural difference between our families. Are there any recommendations you have after a break up? I'm really at a loss here, and though I can talk to my girlfriends and other friends about the breakup I feel like I can't talk to them about H....which still leaves a lot of pain in my heart. I'm not sure what to do...
  20. So happy for you! :) Thank you for sharing! Congrats. I had a similar story to yours. :) Doesn't it feel amazing to know you've found someone so caring that they can see past something the world is so set in stigmatizing cause they know how great you are? I call my boyfriend my guardian angel. He seriously has been as long as we've been together. He's one of the best things that's ever happened to me. I feel blessed every moment I spend with him and we're already making plans to build a future with our relationship being a big part of each other's lives even if we've become a long distance relationship recently. :)
  21. :) SO HAPPY FOR YOU! Isn't it the biggest compliment to know that it isn't a big deal to someone so cool? What website did you use? Keep us updated!
  22. I watched that!! This is one of my favorite shows so I was hurt too...Same thing with Pitch Perfect, I loved the movie until the herpes joke came out. It's just really sad that they have to poke fun at something that has such a negative stigma attached to it that sooo many people suffer from. You'd think that with it being in the media as such as "joke" so often people would either 1) learn to get tested for it or 2)think of it as not a big deal at all. But it seems like those are unlikely to ever happen...
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