Herpes Disclosure and Casual Sex

[WCSDancer2010]

I think @mypersona ... you are looking at the risk per sex act.....

 

The numbers that we quote are per YEAR based on the data that assumes the couple has sex 2x/week ..... so yes, perhaps each sex act would have a lower risk % ... BUT, we have plenty of people on here who had sex ONCE with a person and got Herpes .... so I encourage you to not get too stuck on the "risk per sex act" numbers ....

 

Perhaps this publication will help you to see the risk factors better:

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8383724

[mypersona]

Thanks @WCSDancer2010 . I'm talking about this here because the site encourages a high quality of debate. I'm wary of putting out any data or perspective that discourages people from disclosing, as ultimately it's a very important thing.

 

But it's also very complex - there's a world of misinformation and prejudice out there. Disclosure exposes you to prejudice, potential breaches of trust by people you don't know particularly well, and sometimes unwarranted rejection. Emotionally it's not a one-way street.

 

If transmission rates for a sexual encounter were as high as most people (including seemingly some experienced people in the field) assume, then disclosure would be an absolute no-brainer. It would be criminal and immoral to expose someone knowingly to a 5%, 3%, or even a 1% risk of infection.

 

But I believe the minute nature of risk for individual encounters *is* somewhat relevant to the morality of the debate.

 

I had conservatively used once a week as a base for my 'per year' calculations. Your post, and further info on the page I linked to, now leads me to believe that twice a week is the standard reference. That actually halves the risk quoted in all my calculations.

 

For perspective - that makes the female --> male transmission likelihood (for a single encounter) 1 in 10,000! That's significantly low. Amazingly low in my opinion.

Out of interest - that figure is very similar to the one quoted in my post above.

 

If I were to sleep with someone as a one-off, I would have to think long and hard about whether I had an actual *obligation* to inform them about something so infinitesimally unlikely to occur.

 

I know that all of this goes against the established culture - and that it might even annoy or upset some people. Believe me - that is not my intention. Like many, I am struggling to make best sense of how best to navigate all of this.

 

I'm also aware that I haven't discovered some magic 'get out of jail' card. Relationships are unpredictable - what starts as a single night of passion can turn into something much deeper and more lasting. Those percentages soon start to add up (like the dice in my previous analogy). As others have rightly said - what then? I can't even imagine broaching this subject with someone, having already taken the above decision without their knowledge - not a great way to try to start a relationship!

 

But I'm still convinced my calculation method is correct, and that the figures are in the right ball park at least. I'd be interested in further examination of them, and the topic as a whole.

[Sil88]

I can't believe it was 1 in 10,000.. It only took a week of protected sex. And same for her before that. Not to mention everyone here that caught it from their first experience. How much do you think risk is increased during the first 3 months, or during periods?

[WCSDancer2010]

If I were to sleep with someone as a one-off, I would have to think long and hard about whether I had an actual *obligation* to inform them about something so infinitesimally unlikely to occur.

 

Again, you have to live with your conscience if you pass it on to someone that you didn't disclose to... and in some states, you may be take to court for it given that you know your status.

 

@Sil88's comment shows just how often your theory would be thrown off. I got HSV2 on my very first sexual experience. I am FAR from alone in this.

 

I can't even imagine broaching this subject with someone, having already taken the above decision without their knowledge - not a great way to try to start a relationship!

 

Yup - I did this... ONCE. We used a condom, and I told him before we had sex the second time. He freaked out for a whole month.... and while we did get together, it wasn't a great start. I'd rather the guy freak and leave before I have sex with him than after ... I'm much less emotionally invested for one, and I don't have to bite my nails for 3 months wondering if they got it unwittingly from me.

 

 

[perfGentleman]

One time. Protected.

 

[mypersona]

I take all of the above comments onboard.

 

"Sil88's comment shows just how often your theory would be thrown off."

 

- Well, yes and no. For a start, we are not a typical cross-section of the population - we're here for a reason ;-). Whether the odds of transmission were a million to one or ten to one, this site is where you would find the recipients.

 

Taking his case as an example (I'm going to have to make some assumptions here, so correct me if I'm wrong @Sil88) - first I'm going to assume that like most people the woman involved was not taking daily antivirals. That doubles the risk up to 5000-1 straight away. Then I'm going to assume they had sex like, ten times during that first week together (I know what new love is like!) - then the odds have dropped all the way to 500-1 - still a high number, but you can see how we are operating in a whole new ball game now (expressed as a percentage that's 0.2%).

 

I imagine that a number of things conspire to make transmission so widespread - no.1, sex without condoms - it's such a natural mistake to make (I can attest to that); no.2, symptoms in place - make love when there are active legions and all of the above transmission stats are irrelevant. Even the highest figure of 10% (no condom, no antivirals) doesn't allow for the presence of active legions. I imagine that there are instances where people are unaware that their sexual partner is displaying symptoms, as crazy as that may seem; no.3, ignorance of status - as widely noted, most people who are carriers don't actually know they have it, which in turn leads to unsafe practices and transmission.

 

So if the odds are low, they're low. There's no use denying it. Unless you have solid evidence to back it up.

 

Serious disclaimer: I haven't done any math like this since school days, and I really wouldn't want anyone to risk their sexual health (or that of others) based on my musings at this stage. I'd be really grateful if someone (who actually knows statistical mathematics!) could go through my workings.

 

At some point I would like to join in more with the debate about the importance of disclosure, and the emotional implications of 'casual' sex. But I really had to get this idea off my chest first and discuss it.

[mypersona]

lol - I meant lesions, not legions. If you're having sex with legions, then you really are increasing the risk factor!

[mr_hopp]

Hey again,

 

Please do educate yourself fully on our handouts. Here's the link again:

http://eepurl.com/b4IPP

 

I understand you're coming from a place of wanting a healthy debate, but you aren't doing the research to properly debate this in a healthy way. My saying this is coming from a sincere desire to keep this forum as a pristine place to get high-quality information. All of the information I have put out earlier in this thread still applies. This is not a debate as much as my attempt to help you (and anyone else reading this) understand the facts.

 

It all comes down to this (which has been said throughout this thread): It doesn't help to look at percentages broken down per sexual act, only over a span of time. Each sexual act either culminates in 0% or 100% herpes transmission. Over time, those are averaged out to the percentages seen on the handouts.

 

And your no. 2 assumption above is incorrect. Again, please read the post-disclosure handout here — http://eepurl.com/b4IPP — The 10% DOES take into consideration not having sex during an active outbreak.

 

And ...

 

I wonder how much of this debate you're wanting is fueled by a genuine desire for knowledge and how much of it is fueled by fear of disclosing?

 

Disclosing doesn't have to be the dealbreaker you're making it out to be in your mind. It can feel that way, yes. But it's actually an opportunity for deeper connection. And I totally get the fear. I felt it for years. The first stage of healing is denial (a.k.a. avoiding the facts). I engaged in this sort of debate, too, all in an attempt to prove that the facts somehow didn't apply to me. The second stage is anger ... I told myself all sorts of stories about why disclosure wasn't necessary. I had sex without disclosing. I was pissed off at the world. And the guilt ate away at me ... And when I got past that and went through my deep healing, I realized it wasn't herpes that was holding me back. It was me. From then on, herpes disclosure (even during what ended up being short-term hookups) became the doorway to deeper connection.

 

We're all about truth and openness here at H Opp. People deserve to know the truth about anything that can impact their lives. And when that something is passed during such an intimate act as sex, there's that much more reason to be open and honest. Yes, even if it's a one-night stand. We are all humans who deserve to be treated with respect and decency.

 

[ EDIT ]

 

After this discussion, I talked with Dr. Leone about this to get a professional clarification. Here's what he had to say:

http://herpeslife.com/herpes-forum/discussion/5255/from-dr-peter-leone-herpes-transmission-risk-per-sex-act-explained

[WCSDancer2010]

@mypersona

 

Just as a bit of info for you, @Adrial is in close contact with Dr Peter Leone, one of the top HSV researchers in the country.... I'm pretty darned sure he discussed this with Dr Leone to ensure that he had his facts straight before he made the handouts. I have met Adrial in person and I can tell you he does his due diligence in everything he does. Between that and what I have experienced in 35 yrs (the last 10 on and off of forums) I back what Adrial says 100% ;)

 

People deserve to know the truth about anything that can impact their lives. And when that something is passed during such an intimate act as sex, there's that much more reason to be open and honest. Yes, even if it's a one-night stand. We are all humans who deserve to be treated with respect and decency.

 

And that about sums it up for me too ;)

[Marie14]

I completely agree that no matter what the circumstance a person needs to be given a choice. Just because it is safer using condoms and taking antivirals it does not mean that it won't happen. A person who has herpes has an obligation to disclose because we have something that can drastically affect someone else's life.

 

I was not given that choice. The man who gave this to me knew he had it and he didn't tell me until I ended up with my first outbreak. I have learned to forgive him because to be angry about something I cannot change is useless and a waste of energy.

 

I have had herpes for about two months now ... it has been hard because I ride horses for a living and it is painful when I get an outbreak. But, I am in a good place with this. I know it is not going to change my life in anyway, except that I will have to disclose to new partners. And I WILL disclose regardless if it is for one night or forever because I know what it is like to not have a choice.

 

 

[mypersona]

Thanks for the responses. Let me address a few points:

 

"I understand you're coming from a place of wanting a healthy debate, but you aren't doing the research to properly debate this in a healthy way."

 

Frankly that's flat out patronizing. I've backed up everything I've said with well-researched facts, and I even seem to have drawn your attention to one or two things you weren't quite aware of ;-). It might surprise you to know that your handout is not the only quality source of information on the subject.

 

"It doesn't help to look at percentages broken down per sexual act, only over a span of time."

 

So you say - but I'm interested in looking at the actual risk that an individual enters into with regards to a one-off sexual encounter. I find this *highly* relevant with regards to disclosure responsibility in casual sex situations (the subject of this thread).

 

"And your no. 2 assumption above is incorrect. [edit]... — The 10% DOES take into consideration not having sex during an active outbreak."

 

Have another read of my post - I'm afraid your logic has let you down again - I was also arguing that the 10% took into consideration no active outbreaks (in this instance we are both making the same point!).

 

"I wonder how much of this debate you're wanting is fueled by a genuine desire for knowledge and how much of it is fueled by fear of disclosing?"

 

Wonder all you like - or even better, have a re-read of my posts - I've been completely open about why I'm pursuing this as a conversation, so there's really no need to speculate.

 

"Disclosing doesn't have to be the dealbreaker you're making it out to be in your mind."

 

Since I haven't mentioned it - you have no idea what's going on in my mind. Stick to medical advice - your mind-reading skills turn out to be not that great!

 

"Just as a bit of info for you, Adrial is in close contact with Dr Peter Leone, one of the top HSV researchers in the country...."

 

I have no doubt that the resources and info on this site are well researched, well thought-out, well meaning, and up-to-date. To be honest I wouldn't be spending time here if it wasn't.

 

I have enormous respect for the work you do, and support it in every way.

 

You aspire to be a community founded on openness, which is admirable and crucial. But let me tell you - accusing people who present alternate points of view (backed up with considerable and accurate research) that they are 'not equipped to debate in a healthy way' is a way of shutting down debate. So is putting words in my mouth (or in my 'mind', lol).

 

Just to be clear - I am not arguing against disclosure. I am questioning (and for me it's still a question) whether the risk level in the circumstances I've been discussing amounts to a cast-iron obligation.

 

It's a big question - so my appeal to you is to please live up to your ambitions of encouraging debate in an open manner.

[mypersona]

@inka

 

Are you trying to work out if I'm someone you know in real life? If so - it's highly unlikely!

I'm certainly not an aspiring geneticist, or a scientist of any kind - but I'm flattered that you would think so.

[WCSDancer2010]

Just to be clear - I am not arguing against disclosure. I am questioning (and for me it's still a question) whether the risk level in the circumstances I've been discussing amounts to a cast-iron obligation.

 

Once again, I ask you (you have yet to answer this question)...

 

How will you feel IF you happen to pass this on to someone without disclosing? Do you want to be 100% responsible for having made that choice for them? How do you plan to support them? YOU are the one who has to live with your conscience. AND: Are you willing to risk being taken to court (as I have already said, you can be sued in some states for not disclosing :/

 

If you are ok with taking responsibility if you happen to pass H on because you feel that your statistics give you enough peace of mind to do so, then you are the one that has to live with the consequences ... well, you and anyone who *might*, like myself, only need ONE act to get H to prove that statistics are simply numbers.... and someone somewhere is going to have to be the one that proves that for all the people who are exposed to someone with H multiple times and don't get it, there WILL be the ones who just happen to be damned unlucky. (I've long since learned to never mess with anything with crappy odds because I am bound to come out on the crappy end of the deal :p )

[mypersona]

Thanks for the response. I agree it would be horrific to be in that scenario. But... (and I'm being a bit Devils Advocate here, because as I said before I'm still in two minds) sex is an inherently risky act. When you sleep with someone, regardless of the precautions you take, you expose yourself to the risk of sti's, including HIV, and even cancer (oral sex). If the risk increases as a result of my status then that's something to definitely disclose. If the increase in risk is very minute - then I'm not so sure.

 

Thanks for treating this as a genuine appeal for discourse. I'm not here to push an agenda, or start a fight!

[WCSDancer2010]

Well the disclosure conversation goes TWO ways you know ... so the other side is you may be saving YOURSELF from another STD ... especially if you ask when their last test was and do they know for SURE what they were tested for. If you get a vague answer, you are playing with fire ;)

[Herpeppotomus]

I'm glad we are raising the issue of casual sex. Most disclosure discussions seem to assume or imply monogamy . For most of my life I haven't been interested in monogamy, nor do I want it to be something I'm forced into due to my HSV2. On the other hand, nor do I like the feeling of maybe possibly infecting someone without their knowledge. That's why this discussion is important.

 

That said, I'd like to chime in by seconding all those who say that disclosing before potential sexual contact is actually likely to produce a positive response in your potential partner. After about a year of having HSV2, I've only recently been able to find the courage to risk the chance of rejection or not getting laid by first disclosing to my potential partner. I've done this 5 times now. Each time the person in question ended up deciding to be sexual with me anyway, or to continue to spend time with me still with expressed interest. My latest example of this was yesterday morning when, in anticipation of our evening plans together, I disclosed over the phone to her (doing it in advance like this is best I think because it gives her some time to process before seeing you and prevents any awkward abrupt buzz kill disclosures later- even though in person is better I agree). Her response was that she was "impressed with my maturity" and still very attracted to me. That night she told me straight forward how much she appreciated it and that she chose to hang with me that night over 2 other options! She also told me that she didn't even read the informational flyer and video I sent her- she deleted them. When I asked why, she said just because she trusted me. So it wasn't the de-taboo-izing information about genital herpes that led her to remain interested or even gain in interest. It was the very act of self effacing vulnerability that honest disclosure is! And this wasn't someone I've known for a long time, or who will necessarily become a serious girlfriend, but only a second date! Since I knew we would have jumped each other's bones that night otherwise, and since I didn't want to without disclosing (after a year of doing that I can't take it anymore), I knew I had to tell her. And while I didn't get laid last night, she still wanted me to sleep (sleep sleep) with her. And it feels worlds better than if I had gotten laid but hadn't disclosed.

 

Disclosing is scary because we know it reveals what we may feel to be our most unattractive quality, and thus reason for rejection. It does potentially. But it also reveals some of our most attractive qualities- strength, vulnerability, depth, maturity, confidence, ability to care for another person over ourselves. How the disclosee responds, I suppose, depends on the extent he/she feels these latter qualities outweigh the former. But that you can't control. So just represent yourself as well as you can and hope for the best I guess (but isn't that just what you'd do regardless of HSV?).

 

Anyway, I have a few questions hoping someone can shed some light.

 

1) What do you think of these supposed new age virus cures (e.g. Various herbal and oil detoxes)?

 

2) Is there anything a non-HSV partner can take to ensure she will not receive the virus if I am shedding? I realize there is not yet a vaccine.

 

3) Will the HPV vaccine still be affective for me at 29? The doc tells me no but then Dr. Leone implied that it would even at 50. Also, if I have HPV is the vaccine still applicable?

 

Also, it needs to be said that since there is no such thing as a scrotum condom, you can still pass on or receive HSV while wearing a condom. I WAS WEARING A CONDOM when I got HSV, I believe, since my initial outbreak was on the scrotum. Therefore I really don't see what the point of a condom is for those who can shed through scrotal skin. Therefore, perhaps someone can elucidate:

 

4) does shedding occur only where you've had an outbreak or anywhere in the genital region due to the skin being thinner there?

[WCSDancer2010]

@Herpeppotomus

 

Hello and Welcome!

 

it wasn't the de-taboo-izing information about genital herpes that led her to remain interested or even gain in interest. It was the very act of self effacing vulnerability that honest disclosure is!

 

YES! I m a strictly monogamous person, but I have chosen to put my status on all my dating profiles and I have had a very similar experience ... men appreciate my transparency and honesty, and I'd say that 80-90% of the men who contact me are H-.

 

As for your questions:

 

1) Modern Snake Oil for the most part. *Some* may help the body to fight the virus (there are many herbs and supplements that have anti-viral and immune enhancing properties.... so it's possible that a smart bio-chemist might come up with a useful blend that would help keep the virus at bay. But believe me, if there was a cure, it would get bought out by Big Pharma and chemically copied and reproduced in a New York minute ;)

 

2) To my knowledge, there isn't anything they can take (tho I have heard a few suggestions that they take the anti-virals but I can't find anything to back it up... and they would need to be on them for at least 10 days to be effective). There's also some thought that we pass it on more now because so many shave ... there's a theory that thicker hair kept us from having as much irritation with sex.... again - no proof but it kinda makes sense. Certainly, if they have a rash from shaving or you have rough sex and create a rub/sore, you have just created a highway for the virus to get in, so go easy and use lots of lube.

 

3) I can't answer that one ... but remember the vaccine only works for the 2 varieties that cause warts and the 4-6 that cause cancer ... there are about 40 all together. Other than that, you would have to ask someone who specializes in HPV and I don't think anyone here is that versed in the facts about the vaccine.

 

4) Shedding generally occurs in the area where your OB's were ... because it travels back down the nerves that it originally made it's home in. So odds are a condom is less useful for you ... though you may want to experiment with the FC2 Female condom, which at least protects the more of the womans tender labia (where the OB's are especially painful if she gets it there).

 

http://tinyurl.com/FC2-condom

 

*Some* guys wear boxer shorts which may help to keep the scrotum out of the "danger zone" - not necessarily sexy ( unless you are into that I guess!) ... also there ARE some latex pants (don't remember where the discussion is, but someone posted it) that literally have a hole for the penis ... again kinky if you love latex, perhaps a buzz-kill if you are not :p

 

Hope that helps a bit :)

 

 

[Herpeppotomus]

It does thank you. Also, is there anything like an in home swab test i can use to determine if i am currently shedding?

[Herpeppotomus]

Also, what's the best H+ dating website? 

[WCSDancer2010]

You can go through Westover Heights to get a swab test that will give you an idea how much you shed but there isn't a long term, OTC option at the moment I'm afraid.

 

As for dating sites, I'm on Pos Singles (also OKC and POF because I won't restrict myself to H+ options)... but the pickins are few and far between for me where I live... only about 4% of the dating population is on ALL the STD sites ... so the numbers will be pretty low pretty much anywhere you live :p

[HBased]

Question for @domesticatrix: at what point in initiating these casual encounters do you bring it up? Looking to compare field notes.. ;)

[Ilovemyself]

Why do people with oral HSV1 don't need to disclose and those with genital HSV1 do? The risk is the same, no?

[wjax]

Serious disclaimer: I haven't done any math like this since school days, and I really wouldn't want anyone to risk their sexual health (or that of others) based on my musings at this stage. I'd be really grateful if someone (who actually knows statistical mathematics!) could go through my workings.

 

 

I just stumbled on this old thread and wanted to chime in. You are indeed correct in your math. The data is easily analyzed using the binomial probability statistical function found in spreadsheets such as Excel.

 

Taking the male-to-female transmission scenario using the Valtrex + condoms dataset for analysis there is a roughly 2.5% chance of female seroconversion in a one year period for a sexually active couple where the male is seropositive. Assuming intercourse 100 times/year the probability of HSV transmission is about 1 in 4000 per sexual encounter using the binomial probability model, pretty much in line with the numbers you posted. Good work!

 

 

[CatLady3000]

On 3/3/2012 at 5:18 AM, domesticatrix said:

I just posted a question about this!! I should have looked here first.

Just reading this already makes me feel better about casual interactions. I was thinking about addressing it just as you have described, but needed a boost from someone else to provide confidence. 

Thank you!

 

 

 

 

 

 

I really appreciate all of the suggestions on disclosure that I have read on this site. I do, however, feel as though most of the discussions  on disclosure are related to the desire for long-term, monogamous relationships. I really liked the example in the video by the site administrator on the "herpes talk," and would consider a dialogue such as this were I interested in pursuing a traditional relationship. However, I did not think it was conducive for folks interested in a quick, sexual experience. Perhaps this idea has yet to be addressed because conventional notions about having herpes also would have us believe that when you have herpes you "can't, shouldn't or wouldn't" have brief sexual encounters. I am sure many of you disagree with this notion, but I have yet to find a discussion for perverts like me 🙂 addressing the subject.

 

As it is, I have had herpes for 4 years now, (going on five?) and I still have little interest in long-term monogamous relationships, (although I do have a Jamaican boyfriend that I would consider sticking with for awhile we lived in the same country!) That said, it has been my pattern to always seek to meet my sexual needs with new partners simply because my needs are immense and unique. I would like to write more about what this experience has been like in the near future, but only have a few minutes at the moment.

 

I just want to add that there are also ways of disclosing with dignity when you just want to indulge a tryst. I usually keep it really simple and say something like, "I carry the herpes virus and feel the need to disclose this information before we get physical. I understand if this makes you unsure or lose your interest. If you would like to, we can do other things that are sexual besides "fucking." If you are interested in a penetrative sex we can use rubbers. Let ya think about it."

 

I was interested in everyone's take on casual sex encounters post positive diagnosis and if/how you disclose. The reason I think this is important is because most of the language we use around the subject of disclosure is almost always referring to the desire for connection to another based on the ideal of long-term monogamy. We tell ourselves, we want a relationship with this person, and the foundation of said relationship should be honesty. I would argue that the language we use and its premises should be more flexible than this and that we should extend this idea to every encounter; so that every encounter can be prefaced with honesty.

 

I do not doubt that many on this site already see it this way, but I scarcely see it being discussed so thought I would broach the subject. To be honest myself, I find disclosing to people that I have deep and intense feelings for waaaaay more difficult than disclosing to folks I meet while traveling when I'm looking for a brief and sexy affair. I notice my level of confidence and the way I disclose changes situationally which tells me that I have work to do still on my own self worth and how this virus pertains to it. If it makes anyone feel like life is more "possible," know that in my 4 years of HSV2 positivity and between intense and painful outbreaks, I have had many encounters with mmmany partners, who all knowingly took a risk by sleeping with me. What I always like to remind myself is that every time I have sex, I too am taking a risk because many folks just don't know what they have.

 

 

[Guest Fatladysangnocure]

Wow. 2014 is the most current replies here?